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Author Topic: How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?  (Read 2143 times)

345WinOr

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How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?
« on: March 06, 2016, 09:48:18 PM »

So, hypothetically, if my neighbor has a CNC shop and is willing to donate use of his equipment, power, etc., to machine a lower, and I walk in the door with my new lower and he agrees to watch me put the lower in the vise, and as I push the start process button, am I within the law as the machinist?

Is he potentially somehow in violation of ATF rules & regs?  Assume I do not want to mark it per ATF rules after the process/assembly, or sell it, trade or give it away, and that his assistance would be free of charge. Furthermore, assume he has all the G-code necessary to do this task on his CNC already, and has made several of these in past, for his personal use.

Just curious.....

Thanks,

Dan L
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Jefe

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Re: How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2016, 07:13:11 AM »

So, hypothetically, if my neighbor has a CNC shop and is willing to donate use of his equipment, power, etc., to machine a lower, and I walk in the door with my new lower and he agrees to watch me put the lower in the vise, and as I push the start process button, am I within the law as the machinist?

Is he potentially somehow in violation of ATF rules & regs?  Assume I do not want to mark it per ATF rules after the process/assembly, or sell it, trade or give it away, and that his assistance would be free of charge. Furthermore, assume he has all the G-code necessary to do this task on his CNC already, and has made several of these in past, for his personal use.

Just curious.....

Thanks,

Dan L

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing/download

The section you are probably most interested in is "Use of Manufacturing Machines, Tools, or Equipment" on page 5.

#askingforafriend
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345WinOr

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Re: How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2016, 02:56:46 PM »

Thanks, that pretty well clarifies it.

Dan
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mykall

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Re: How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2016, 08:24:56 PM »

"Under the instruction or supervision of the FFL or unlicensed
machine shop, the customers would initiate and/or manipulate the machinery, tools, or
equipment to complete the frame or receiver, or entire weapon.  The FFL or unlicensed machine
shop would typically charge a fee for such activity, or receive some other form of compensation
or benefit."

                                                ******

Looks like you're in the clear as long as there is no fee involved.  But uneasy lies this entire process.
Rules are simple as ever...get what you can.....while you can!   
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Jefe

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Re: How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2016, 07:24:51 AM »

"Under the instruction or supervision of the FFL or unlicensed
machine shop, the customers would initiate and/or manipulate the machinery, tools, or
equipment to complete the frame or receiver, or entire weapon.  The FFL or unlicensed machine
shop would typically charge a fee for such activity, or receive some other form of compensation
or benefit."

                                                ******

Looks like you're in the clear as long as there is no fee involved.  But uneasy lies this entire process.
Rules are simple as ever...get what you can.....while you can!


As I understand it the general idea is that the ATF wants to stop machine shops from creating a turnkey service where you just load up the lower and then hit a button and their machine and program mills the lower. I don't think they are concerned about a guy going over to his friend's shop/house and using that equipment. But I don't speak for the ATF and I'm sure some agent could make a case if he wanted to on anything. The term "benefit" could mean many things.
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mykall

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Re: How is the personal machinist of 80% lowers defined?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2016, 03:44:11 PM »


As I understand it the general idea is that the ATF wants to stop machine shops from creating a turnkey service where you just load up the lower and then hit a button and their machine and program mills the lower. I don't think they are concerned about a guy going over to his friend's shop/house and using that equipment. But I don't speak for the ATF and I'm sure some agent could make a case if he wanted to on anything. The term "benefit" could mean many things.

I thought there was some question as to whether or not having a friend do it even for free was legal, just like you could not sell or even give a finished 80% to anyone.  But there doesn't seem to be a problem "getting help" finishing a lower that you worked on yourself.  So theoretically if a friend did a lot or most of the work and you worked on it as well you should be in a safe "gray" area.
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mykall

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