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Author Topic: Mailing a completed 80% Lower  (Read 3408 times)

mykall

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Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« on: May 03, 2015, 06:11:12 PM »

Here is the question I have.  I know you cannot sell a completed 80% lower w/o FFL.  I also know you CAN legally give one away to friends/family.  But what about if you complete
a lower as a gift, box it up and send it through the mail to someone? 

I know when I sent my Ruger in for warranty service, Ruger could only mail it back to the sender address and required signature of the addressed recipient. Any other address had to be an FFL dealer.

 
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Jefe

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2015, 09:05:34 PM »

I'm not sure that's completely correct. You can sell a completed lower with or without an FFL (depending on your state) BUT you need to mark the lower as required by the ATF.

http://www.80percents.com/smf/index.php/topic,52.0.html

I'm not aware that gifting the lower absolves you of any need to mark it. I believe selling or giving are both "transfers" in the eyes of the law. If you can provide any documentation stating otherwise I would be very appreciative. I'm not aware that transferring it for no money is treated any differently than selling it.

Your point about sending a firearm back to the manufacturer for service is correct. A non-licensee (non-FFL) can send a firearm back to the manufacturer for service (or any other FFL) without going through an FFL. The manufacturer may also send the firearm directly back to the original sender (owner) without going through an FFL.

With those points in mind I believe the question becomes can you send a completed lower (a firearm) through the mail. When you say "mail" do you mean the USPS or any package delivery service that would include UPS, FedEx, etc.?

From a Federal standpoint you can ship a firearm to a resident of your same state without going through an FFL. If you ship it to a resident of another state then it must be sent to an FFL in their state. Again, I believe your are still required to mark the firearm per Federal regulations 27 CFR 478.92.
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mykall

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2015, 10:22:09 AM »

It looks like I was mistaken.  Under #2 below you cannot gift a completed lower, I mistakenly believed you could. That then answers the question about mailing a completed lower.

http://aresarmor.com/store/FAQ

Number 4 on this FAQ site is an interesting one, because it's not local law enforcement I'd be worried about.  It's government agencies like the ATF who these days seem to be given broad discretion to do whatever they want, legal or not.
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Jefe

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2015, 12:30:48 PM »

Although I agree with what Ares has written I would not use them as the definitive answer. That being said they would at least be on the "safe" side of the argument.

You should also be concerned about local LEO. If they decide to take your firearm, right or wrong, what are you going to do on the spot? Nothing if you're smart. But then how do you get it back from the department? If they give you some line like "we can't locate/find/give your firearm without knowing the serial number" you're going to have to provide some other proof and maybe get a lawyer involved. I recommend taking good photos of your firearm in whatever configuration you have it to help identify it if need be.
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mykall

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2015, 03:55:04 PM »

The receivers will have a special engraving to identify them (and whatever components attached) as mine. 

There are constant attempts (and I don't expect them to stop) to shut down the 80 percent market.  Those are legislative attempts but it won't necessarily take
"legislation".  Look what happened WRT M855 (green tip).   That one is still not over.  So I don't see confiscation by local authorities as the big issue (it's a concern) but rather the inability to acquire these in the future as more ominous.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, get your 80 percent(s) while you CAN!
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Jefe

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2015, 07:21:36 PM »

What type of scenario do you imagine could happen? What agency would shut it down and by what authority? As long as these don't fit the legal definition of a firearm then they are out of the purview of ATF. The most I can envision is a law that says you have to mark a firearm with your information and give it a serial number. But even that failed in CA when the governor vetoed it. I don't see that happening at a national level. Home built firearms have a long tradition in this country.
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mykall

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 09:16:03 PM »

I don't think agencies worry about "legal authority" when they're given marching orders with wide latitude and an agenda.  Did you ever wonder why about 1.5-2 years ago you couldn't find a handgun round on the shelves or by mail order?  That ....uhhh....those.....agencies bought up ammo by the billions of rounds so that you couldn't.  Legally they couldn't get the legislation they wanted so they took another route. 

Never underestimate the forces against freedom and their tactics.  Those were yesterday's tactics.

This is all I'm saying.







   
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Jefe

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Re: Mailing a completed 80% Lower
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2015, 08:10:10 AM »

I did not wonder why ammo was in short supply and it wasn't because of any buying spree by government agencies (and certainly not one based on buying ammo so citizens couldn't have it). Just like other gun and ammo shortages in recent times (post BHO election in 2008/2012, Sandy Hook in 2012) it was a self-inflicted wound by the firearms community fueled by fear and misinformation. Remember this was early 2013, just after Sandy Hook and BHO's reelection a few months earlier. Gun owners were already in panic mode and had been buying up all of the "gonna be banned" items they could. ARs, AKs, "large capacity" magazines, 5.56 and 7.62 ammo, etc. Then came the over-hyped and overstated ammo buying of the DHS. Back to the stores we went to get all of the handgun ammo we could and we cleared the shelves. Then the next guy who went to buy ammo saw the empty shelves and it put some panic in him so he went out and bought all he could because there was now a "shortage". Eventually this trickled down to people buying all of the 22lr they could find. Why? I believe because that was all that was left. People were still in panic mode and they felt they had to buy something. The cycle fueled itself and profiteers then started selling ammo (especially 22lr) on Gunbroker that they had bought locally. It became a cottage industry of going store to store and buying all of the ammo they could and then reselling on Gunbroker. Rifle and handgun ammo has made its way back and prices have dropped to reasonable levels but we're still living with the 22lr shortage today. The whole thing reminds me of the 1973 toilet paper shortage.

http://priceonomics.com/the-great-toilet-paper-scare-of-1973/

Here's an article on Breitbart that fact checks the DHS ammo buy rumor.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/04/04/the-great-dhs-ammunition-stockpile-myth/
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